Freedom of Religion

[Kafir]

I hear much about freedom of religion from my Muslim friends. They quote "there can be no compulsion in religion" (2:256), yet they also say that:

روي أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: من بدل دينه فاقتلوه.
It is narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said: [From among the Banu Ishmael,] whoever changes his religion, kill him1.

I am no Arabic scholar, but the two of these concepts seem entirely contradictory. I one verse obviated by the other? Or does the Koran say that once you are born (or have reverted to Islam), you must not change to another religion?

Help me out here. Which is correct? It would be interesting to hear from former Muslims and see how they have been treated after they accepted another religion.

[Rose15]

I cant be bothered to answer ur Q, too tired, been a busy day and i still have to pray and do my uni work

but i wanted to ask u

u wrote

Interests:
Eating pork, drinking alcohol, defending America from evil.

If you want to defend it from evil, then I suggest you start from the US Gov

seeing as ur a so called warrior :yo:

[Kafir]

You and I are warriors of a different stripe... I don't hide amongst the civilian population and I don't use children as human shields.

[Nour al Islam*]

You and I are warriors of a different stripe... I don't hide amongst the civilian population and I don't use children as human shields.

My question to you is then why are you on this forum? are you here to understand what islam preaches? or have you already decided what Islam is based on what the media have fed you?

If you are here only to cause problems then by all means you are not welcome. If you are here just because you are curious as to know what Islam is all about then by all means you are more than welcome here. . .

[Kafir]

I want to understand why you are Muslims! I see so much evil coming from the Islamic world -- death, destruction, slaughter, rape. There must be something good, otherwise certainly rational people would have forsaken this faith! I want to find that kernal of good, because I want to see you as humans and not the animals you now seem to be.

In short, I want to understand you, and that's why I'm here.

[Umm Layth]

I see so much evil coming from the Christian world -- death, destruction, slaughter, rape.

[malibari]

It varies from place to place , In any place that doesnt implement the shareea'h they should be debated and challenged or ignored , what ever is wise and will have the maximum benefit.

In a state where the sharee'ah is implemented , if their apostacy is made public then they should be killed after being give 3 days to rethink their decision . This is the normal case , it may vary due to circumstances .

The punishment for apostacy in the bible is also death and I can prove it !

[Rose15]

I want to understand why you are Muslims! I see so much evil coming from the Islamic world -- death, destruction, slaughter, rape. There must be something good, otherwise certainly rational people would have forsaken this faith! I want to find that kernal of good, because I want to see you as humans and not the animals you now seem to be.

In short, I want to understand you, and that's why I'm here.

lol, I find it funny how you seem to be so frustrated that we have chosen Islam.

Sad though, because we see the beauty of the religion, yet you seem to be blind...deaf.......and dumb...

[Ibn Saud]

I don't think you have made a serious enough effort to understand Islam. America calls itself the flag bearer of world peace.. go Mr. Crusader first fight against Israel and bring us world peace. Why do you turn a blind eye on the atrocities the Israelites commit? hypocrites .. You talk about hate and destruction coming from Islam, ah! I see killing of innocent people in Iraq, Afghanistan, the massacres in Bosnia, Chechenya, Palestine is justified under the tag of fight against terrorism. Do people carry id cards -"I am a member of Al Qaeda, shoot me"- how do you know the person is from a terrorist organization? You don't. You talk about rape, don't you know that America and other western countries have one of the highest number of rape cases, rapes take place every second in America. Thousands of teenagers in America get pregnant daily many of them becoming mothers before 15. Prisons in America are the headquarters for violation of human rights and you have the audacity to point your finger at muslims. More than 20,000 people in America itself convert to Islam every year, do you think they will do this after knowing that Islam promotes violence?

[fatimahye]

kafir,

i didn't answer your poll question since some of the answers are not mutually exclusive

having said that, the answer to your question is:

everyone has the freedom to become muslim

everyone also has the freedom to leave islam, but the penalty in an islamic state is death

this is similar to how you are free to practice your religion as an american citizen, but only as long as it conforms to secular law; if you choose to break one of those secular laws, even if you feel morally it is wrong to follow it, you are free of course, but you must accept the penalty

so if simran left islam nothing would happen to him as we do not live in an islamic state, but if we were in one and after calling him to the right way he insisted on his choice, he would be executed

if you decide to blow up an abortion clinic in the name of christ due to your belief that it is morally unacceptable to allow abortions, then that's your choice, but you will be put in jail for it since our society has decided it is ok

so religious laws (which in islam ARE still sacred and given by god - we are not at liberty to dismiss them according to our whims nor choose which parts of our religion we feel like following) and secular laws are 2 different things

i think your muslims friends are probably ignorant as to how it all exactly works

(btw we featured this thread - nothing i like better than people getting to the point on these issues)

although you are proud to be a "kafir" i actually commend you on being one of the first so-called "free thinkers" etc. who can actually hold an intelligent conversation and admit what's what (many claim this and are some of the most narrow-minded people you will ever see)

and you may not like islam, that is fine, but we will tell you what it is without beating around the bush

we are not afraid of what the world says of us and we refuse to change our religion for peer pressure

(please look in the bible sometime - lots of "shocking" things in there by today's standards, yet people simply do not follow them and blame us for remaining true to our scripture)

our job is not to pimp islam out but to convey the message for the whole world and they can choose what they want to do with it

peace be with those who follow the guidance

[Abu-Usaama]

a non-muslim is free to practice his religion. a Muslim is not free to leave Islam or to commit haraam.

[Abdullah_123]

Asalaamu 'alykum (peace be upon you.)


In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy: 1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?

Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam (http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/) is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests (http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/index.php?category=1), rabbis (http://www.hakimquick.com/synagogue.htm) and atheists (http://www.leveltruth.com/documents/convert.html).

2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified. So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.

From another of my posts:
If a predominantly Christian country were going to execute a former Christian who converted to another religion (in this hypothetical case, Islam) would you be ok with that?
As a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition). But on to your question...

First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here (http://www.islamicboard.com/227017-post30.html) and here (http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/4738-islam-apostasy.html). It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition#Torture_techniques_used)) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.

If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.


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Material from this post has been added to this article:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=414&section=wel_islam&subsection=Misconceptions#28

[Ulthar]

A side note: historically Christendom likewise made no distinction between church and state. For example, Protestant and Catholic armies entirely depopulated large swathes of Germany in order to bring unbelievers into the fold. (The accepted historical estimate is that 30% of the German population perished in the 30 Years War). Only after several hundred years of conflict did even a semblance of freedom of religion emerge. The Islamic world meanwhile provided shelter for Christian refugees -- many Calvanists fleeing the Hapsburgs found shelter in Istambul.

[Debater]

You and I are warriors of a different stripe... I don't hide amongst the civilian population and I don't use children as human shields.
When you are defending Americans makes you a criminal, because Americans are international Criminals engaged in crimes against humanity since the birth of America. Genocide of Indians, terrorist attacks on Japan and all the weak and poor nations is what makes you Americans.

Hiding among civilians and using children as human shield is not a crime; what is crime is when you bomb civilians and murder children because you don't give people the Freedom of Religion and above all Freedom to Live. You impose your state-terrorism on all those who don't agree with you on thoughts and ideas. That's why it seems very odd that a person representing global terrorists (Americans) is asking questions about Freedom of Religion.

But still, Apostacy is the breach of agreement between Allah and His slave and that's why he/she is punished for leaving Islam by death. If you don't agree with this punishment, don't enter Islam, did we ask you to convert?
Keep on serving the American terrorists and keep on sucking the blood of innocent Muslims and eating their flesh.

[Sakeena]

I want to understand why you are Muslims! I see so much evil coming from the Islamic world -- death, destruction, slaughter, rape. There must be something good, otherwise certainly rational people would have forsaken this faith! I want to find that kernal of good, because I want to see you as humans and not the animals you now seem to be.

Animals? So you call the Catholic priest who was touching children a god? And never mind the KKK killing African, Catholic, and Jewish ppl.
You need a reality check ASAP. :caked: You must have no heart to think this about us.

In short, I want to understand you, and that's why I'm here.

lol finally I meet the famous man who hates us. Why do you call yourself Kaffir? Do you have any sense at all? This world we live in is not perfect. The Christian world isn't perfect. The Muslim world isn't perfect. People are not made to be perfect. That's why we seek to live good lives in order to live in Jannah inshallah. This world we will be tested in many ways. Earth is not a paradise. Only Allah (SWT) is perfect! And you need to understand that even though we are the true people of God, we are not perfect, but we try our best. Some don't care about the tue meaning of Islam, they are brain-dead and angry, so stop looking at all Muslims as if we share one brain, because we are all individuals and look at ISLAM-The religion-NOT the people.

Salam Kafir

Sakeena :happy:

[BangladeshiBhurkaBabes]

It is narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said: [From among the Banu Ishmael,] whoever changes his religion, kill him1.

Yeah, I agree with you, it is pretty conflicting. But if you use a bit of logic, it is also stated that muslims should not kill. The statement is basically an exaggeration. it's supposed to indicate how sinful it is.

What you said about all that bad stuff being shown about muslims. Isn't it weird how the good stuff never seems to come up?

I am who I am. Everyone's entitled to their views.
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